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October 20, 2012

Open Thread: Pitt-Buffalo

Filed under: Football,Open Thread — Chas @ 12:16 pm

Hey, a 3:30 start! That’s different. Oh, wait it’s on the road. At… Buffalo. The things you have to do in scheduling. It was a 2-for-1 deal that meant Pitt didn’t have to buy the Buffalo appearances. Considering they got $1,000,000 from Georgia it makes some sense. It also tell tells you the going rate these days to get a 1-A non-BCS program to do a one-offer — and why everyone is using 1-AA schools now.

Not even sure I’ll be able to see the game. We are visiting some of my family this weekend, so I’m not even sure if the game will be shown where we are.





Corey Clement…

Can I say I told you so regarding Chryst recruiting acumen!

Comment by Joe D 10.21.12 @ 5:30 pm

Joe D. Corey Clement was a soft commit, so he is going to a more steady, successful program who has a head coach who has been recruiting (lying) for a long time…no surprise to anyone…BFD, just because PC hasn’t recruited to your standards (4-5 stars, track stars, over 6’2″, etc), doesn’t mean he won’t be successful. Your negative comments show how little you know about team building, coaching, and football. Do your re-visit routine in 3 years, then you can say I told you so, or most likely – boy did I under estimate him…it takes time to learn to be a head coach, line backer, guard, recruiter, adult, etc…

Comment by markp 10.21.12 @ 5:55 pm

markp…
in 3years, when they fire Chryst… yes, I will say I told you so…
how that “coach em up” going so far!!

Comment by Joe D 10.21.12 @ 6:01 pm

If Clement didn’t want to compete for playing time with Shell then good riddance…

Comment by Pittastic 10.21.12 @ 6:08 pm

Well there seems to be a growing groundswell from several posters that we (and that includes PC) is building for the future or laying the groundwork.
And that most of us didn’t expect much this year.
(however I do remember the pre-season prediction post on how PITT would fair this year and Reed and I were on the low end at 7-5) And why not, we have lots of experience at QB, WR, RB, TE and several O-linemen (regardless of their talent level, that’s what Joe Huebner was brought in for, to teach em & coach em up). Plus PC is supposed to be a Offensive schematic genius, so surely we can figure out someway to block YSU, Cuse & Buffalo. Not exactly Murderers Row (to use a old baseball cliche). On the positive side, hey at least we didn’t lose all 3 games to Murderers Row.

Ok back to this notion, that seems to be growing here, that we need to give PC a pass this year.
Ok, let’s say I buy that, we give PC a pass this year and we need to think forward. EVERYTHING IS LOOKING FORWARD. Westward Ho !!

If we are indeed looking forward and planning for the future and at 0-3 in the BigLeast, that would be the prudent thing to do. Plan for the future.

Well the future does not include our 5th yr senior QB (thank God). So for those of you giving PC a pass, because he is building for the future, the future is Trey Anderson & Chad Voytik. And hopefully Tom Savage. Now since we can’t predict how a 3 year layoff will effect Tom Savage and we can’t predict whether or not he might get hurt, as he has a history of injuries. Wouldn’t it indeed be a prudent thing to do, to have either Anderson or Voytik ready for next season, by playing them THIS SEASON.

If you are indeed a proponent of giving PC a pass this year, because, again, you are looking forward. Forward to the Future. Then you also logically would want to have a QB ready, with substantial playing experience for next season.

I’m all in… on building for the future, are you?

Comment by Emel 10.21.12 @ 6:09 pm

I’m a BIG Chryst supporter or at least have been. But, it’s time for PC to ramp it up if he has it to do so.

Forget “growing” from games for awhile. It’s time for PC et al to buckle up the chin straps and win a couple of games with the cards they’ve been dealt.

Season on the line. Next recruiting class on the line.

GIT ‘R DONE!

Comment by PittofDreams 10.21.12 @ 6:14 pm

Pitt picked up a big TE from Ohio yesterday (waiting for Joe D. to complain) and they are playing better and better each game (IMHO). Coaching up may not translate into a winning season this year – but they will be playing at a high level (and a new QB) next year.

Comment by markp 10.21.12 @ 6:24 pm

Joe D I got your back. Pitt loses a top recruit and everyone says “Chryst recruits his guys. He doesn’t need top recruits.” Completely lame excuse. Last I looked we are going into a better conference next year with teams like FSU who have top national recruiting classes every year. If Wanny was the Pitt coach and Pitt was in the ACC his recruiting classes would have been amazing. But now look at Chryst’s recruits a bunch of lower dudes. You can never have enough talent. The whole he recruits his guys is just what bad recruiters say. You won’t see Jumbo Fisher or Nick Saban saying oh I got these two star guys because they fit and that 5 star I lost didn’t it so who cares.

Lots of people are saying Chryst can coach offense. Really can he? There are solid receivers and two good rbs. But the team never scores when it matters. The scoring output against Cuse, YSU and Cinci was a joke. Not exactly the best Ds.

Also when you are down TWO scores failing to kick the FG to make it a one possession game is not going for the win. They needed the FG and a TD. Say they get a TD on that drive. They still need at least a FG.

Comment by Wardapalooza 10.21.12 @ 6:42 pm

If Wanny, If Wanny, If Wanny…he’s gone – couldn’t coach. You proved my point – Fisher, Saban, Meyer, all have more experience than PC and it will take time to get the experience plus show some results on the field…your expectations are unrealistic.

Comment by markp 10.21.12 @ 6:53 pm

Did you really just compare the recruiting acumen of a multiple National Championship coach at a perennial and historic football program with that of a first year head coach?

Wow…maybe the Penn State and WVU fans were right all of these years…we really do have the most delusional fan base in America.

Comment by ECH 10.21.12 @ 6:55 pm

Boys were just saving it up to knock Mr. Kelly out of the NC picture

Comment by alcofan 10.21.12 @ 7:03 pm

You know what I’m sick of this bullshit I keep hearing regarding Chryst’s ability to coach an offense. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! What are you people watching when Pitt plays?! HAVE YOU SEEN THE EFFIN O-LINE. IT’S HORRENDOUS. COMPLETELY TERRIBLE! There is no time for Tino and no holes for the running backs. Chryst’s offenses worked fine with a good O-LINE. He doesn’t have that here in the least bit. If you do not realize this then I seriously question your football intelligence. Everyone who says this team is loaded with talent is completely correct. The problem is that all of it lies in the skill positions. There is no talent on the o-line. None. That could be coaching too, but I highly doubt that considering their past success. I mean shit, Tino became a somewhat decent QB and the team still sucks. This season, 5-7. This season if we had a decent O-line, 8-4.

Comment by Timmeh 10.21.12 @ 7:18 pm

Sorry, this season is just so upsetting…

Comment by Timmeh 10.21.12 @ 7:26 pm

Another semi-popular argument is that this team is not talented. I disagree. It certainly is more talented than YSU & Syracuse.

Let’s take a look at who is on the defense for example.

4 star Aaron Donald
4 star Todd Thomas 4 star Tyrone Ezelle
4 star Cullen Christian 3 star Darryl Render
4 star LaFayette Pitts 3 star LaQuentin Smith
3 star Jack Lippert 4 star Ejuan Price
3 star Manny Williams 3 star Jared Holley
3 star Eric Williams 4 star Bryan Murphy
3 star Ray Vinopal 4 star TJ Clemmings
3 star K’Wuan Williams 4 star Nick Grigsby
4 star K. Mosely-Smith 3 star Rod Ryles
3 star Bam Bradley 3 star Terrel Jackson
3 star Jamal Pardner 3 star Devon Porchia
4 star Daysean Rippy 3 star Shane Gordon
4 star Dan Mason 3 star Brandon Ifill

I’m sure I missed a few, however if you look at
who we have, there is NO WAY we are less talented than a D2 team (YSU) nor Syracuse. And if you compared ours above with Cincy or L-Ville, we more than likely have more talent than them too !

Don’t have time to look at the offense right now, but I’m sure it’s similar. This program while it has been mismanaged from above (Stevie Cornhole), still has lots of talent in the system and had been to 4 straight bowl games from 2008-2012.
It was not a program in total shambles.

So this notion that we don’t have a talent is bogus.

HTP ! VEV ! GRP !

Comment by Emel 10.21.12 @ 7:27 pm

Sir Tino is NOT a decent QB.

Decent 5th year senior QB’s do not score 17 points and lose against a D2 team, 3 points against Cincy (not going to count the last meaningless mercy TD in the last minute), one TD against crappy Syracuse, and one TD against even lower Buffalo (not going to count the first TD in the 2nd quarter since we got the ball at the UB 27 after a Hendricks interception and Sir Tino didn’t even throw one pass in that 27 yard, 9 play TD drive, he just handed off)

He hasn’t progressed much since that very first start against Utah, when he couldn’t make a play that a good or decent QB could make. Stared down his WR so much, that it was an easy pick in OT. You could see it then (or at least some of us could), and if you can’t see it now, 33 games later, oy vey !

Thank God this era in PITT football is coming to a merciful end.

Veritas et Virtus !

Comment by Emel 10.21.12 @ 7:54 pm

EMel you are right so what is wrong.
if the talent is there WTF why is penn state 5 and 2 with a first year coach and us so bad.

is it the asst coachs really becuse on paper we should not be this bad.

somebody make sence of this for me i just dont get it.

and once agein you have all said it is a bad OL
but once agein i will point out chryst is not recruiting any better OL than wanny maybe even less OL men so how do you fix a bad OL WHEN YOU CANT SIGN ANY.

Comment by FRANKCAN 10.21.12 @ 9:18 pm

Shame on you EMEL, you’re gonna be called a griper!!! How dare you tell the truth!!!

Didn’t you know, not allowed to say the truth, especially if that truth is not good.

That’s negativity, that’s a no-no!!!

Comment by Dan 10.21.12 @ 9:35 pm

Saying that Pitt is playing better is maybe the most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard. They were embarrassingly bad against Buffalo.

Comment by Mike 10.21.12 @ 9:36 pm

EMEL, I suggest you count to three, rub your belly in a circular fashion, start singing kumbaya in falsetto, and Pitt will win 10 games next year!!!

Comment by Dan 10.21.12 @ 9:38 pm

“27 yard, 9 play touchdown drive” LMAO!!

Comment by Dan 10.21.12 @ 9:41 pm

DAN i would have helped you with burg1972 but i was off line i just now saw it when reading old post tonight and you were right i was just calling it as i saw it just like dockish burgh1972 should read dockish.

isnet it funny dan and EMel if we see things and point them out we are the bad ones some fans fallow like sheep you are a good frend DAN you and EMEL and boosdraws and DR. tom we love pitt but we wont fallow like blind sheep

Comment by FRANKCAN 10.21.12 @ 9:50 pm

DAN i am stubborn and determined just how
stubborn am i
i once turned down a job makeing twice what i was makeing this was 35 years ago becuse the man wanted me to shave my beard i would not do it.
the point is i love pitt but if i see things that i think are not right i will say so .

a coach is not god do you remmber when i said no slack for TG half the posters on here thought i was the devil than they chanded there minds and thought TG was was the devil.

aftrer all we all have different thoughts dont we

we are not comminust

Comment by FRANKCAN 10.21.12 @ 10:36 pm

Enough talk about fball. Let get the hoops season started! I’ll pay attention to fball again when spring ball starts up. It will be the post Tino era ans I will be happy again. We will have another year of the guys knowing PC’s system and finally a QB we can count on to make plays more than Tino. Til then, let’s go Steve Adams and the Panther hoops team.

Comment by Dish 10.21.12 @ 11:00 pm

EMEL, no offense but just because you are rated a good HS prospect doesn’t translate into how you will perform in College. Maybe you want to rate how they’ve performed at Pitt as a comparison.

Comment by markp 10.21.12 @ 11:11 pm

No problem FRANKCAN, good to see you and emel. I have no problem with 72Burgh either really.

I just thought it was ridiculous he got persoonal with saying you’re negative. I’ve seen you post for years, mostly positive pro Pitt.

We are allowed to criticize aren’t we??? This isn’t Mr. Happy’s world of fun afterall is it???

Then when he commented back, and used the word pathetic, I thought, time to have some fun with him.

Why can some of us be cynical and sarcastic at times, have you been awake, have you followed Pitt football for the last 30 years??? LOL

Frankly, besides all of the snide remarks from both of us, I’m still waiting for his answer, to the question he posed to you.

Two options he said, accept what they have to offer. (mediocrity, not accepting).

Or, work to fix the problem??? I said, other than buying season tickets, donating to the university athletics, and academics, and buying merchandise, just how does a fan go about working on fixing the problem???

I did let him drag me into the gutter, when he used the word pathetic, then questioned my life for spending time on a sports blog day after day,

not to worry Frankcan, I can go to the gutter if need be!!!!!! LMAO

Frank, you have nothing to apologize for, you’re one of the best Pitt fans on here, you bleed blue and gold, and should not be questioned.

Hail To Pitt!!!

Comment by Dan 10.21.12 @ 11:54 pm

Wasn’t Tino Sunseri a consensus 3*?

Comment by CNorwoodAZ 10.22.12 @ 12:05 am

Now that RB clement is gone i bet RB roman clay
gets a offer just a guess i dont know for sure

and for thoes that care i think mark myers has thrown for close to 2000 yards and 18 TD IN 6 games .

Comment by FRANKCAN 10.22.12 @ 1:03 am

We won. We were the better team. I got what I expected in this game. Now on to Temple and a chance for 500 and some momentum leading into the ND game. I’ll be in Da Burgh to see this game. Hopefully, the weather won’t be like Buffalo and Pitt will deliver. The Rutgers and ND games will tell us if this team is improving and if we have a chance next year in the ACC. If I was a recruit, I would pay close attention to those games. That means you Dorian and Robert.

Comment by TX Panther 10.22.12 @ 7:59 am

TX Panther..
if the recruitment of Foster and Johnson hinges on how we do in Rutgers and ND game…
then consider them OSU commits!!!

Comment by Joe D 10.22.12 @ 8:30 am

Joe D,

Meyer is a tenacious recruiter and I do not expect either to end up at Pitt.

As you said various times, Chryst just doesn’t have the closing skills. We have a void on the oline and dline that should be the priority not a safety who plays in a low division with 4.75 speed, what are they thinking?

Comment by WLAT and The Big Beat 10.22.12 @ 8:45 am

FRANKCAN,

Where did Myers end up? I tried keeping an eye out for an update on his transfer out, but I’m not on most of the other boards, so apparently I missed it.

Comment by Stoosh 10.22.12 @ 9:22 am

Stoosh: Div3 John Carroll

Comment by ECH 10.22.12 @ 9:49 am

Ever since Chryst uttered the words at his first pressor..
“just offer”….
did anyone have any doubt that Chryst can’t land the big recruit…
Right now… Chapman and Orndoff are the only big time recruits…
Foster and Johnson are doubtful…
and Chapman is shaky (don’t be surprised if he decommits)

Comment by Joe D 10.22.12 @ 10:00 am

Emel,

I don’t think anyone who threw out anything from 6-6 to 8-4 as preseason predictions were out of line. This depth chart had a ton of question marks through it. That was compounded by the fact that many of these kids were dealing with their third system in as many years, and THAT was compounded by the fact that none of has had any idea how they would respond to this coaching staff.

On offense, the running game hasn’t been the strength it was expected to be. It’s safe to say that the offensive line has under-performed, given some of the veteran presence there. Ironically, perhaps the biggest question marks on offense heading into the season – QB and WR – have been among the most productive to this point, but even that progress is stunted a little by Sunseri’s and lack of intangibles and inability to deliver in clutch situations.

On defense, we knew Donald would be solid, but his production may have dipped in large part because the other linemen haven’t elevated their games. Reed discussed the lack of experience at the LB position at length. The perceived strength that was the defensive backfield struggled at first but has taken steps to get better gradually.

As I said in a previous response, the YSU loss was absolutely indefensible. The Syracuse loss was tough to swallow because of all the missed opportunities there. This team, by all accounts, should really be 5-2 right now. Fans SHOULD be disappointed about that. I don’t blame anyone who is. I am as well.

I agree with a lot of what both you and dhuffdaddy posted above, particularly at the QB position. I am beginning to wonder how the coaching staff sees it – whether they’re at the point that wins and bowl eligibility this year mean less than actively preparing your roster coming back for next year.

To this point, they’re 3-4 with three winnable games on the schedule (Temple, UConn, USF). If they were to happen to lose this weekend or to UConn coming off what I think will be a loss at ND, I think that has to become a very real option at that point.

I think the points you both raised regarding Savage and his injury history are valid. I’m not sure where Voytik is in terms of his command of the playbook, but I WOULD like to see something from either he or Anderson this year, whether that comes in some sort of blowout win or loss.

I like the idea of coming back with Savage, Voytik, Anderson and (hopefully) Chapman next year, but there’s big-time potential for a repeat of 2007 when Stull got hurt in the opener and Wanny was forced to go to Kevan Smith/Pat Bostick.

Comment by Stoosh 10.22.12 @ 10:15 am

Corey Clement has been waffling for months. He probably saw the writing on the wall. Shell is the starter for the forseeable future here. Of all positions, RB is the least of my worries for this team.

I can barely stand to read the comments here anymore. This site used to be the last bastion of reasoned debate as far as Pitt forums. Pantherlair and Dokish’s blog are full of kneejerkers who would rather just spit fire and namecall than have a real discussion. Now they are all here too. It’s a shame.

Comment by JCE 10.22.12 @ 10:17 am

Ye of little faith. If everyone expects Pitt to lose in South Bend, that’s when Pitt will pleasantly surprise. Watch for it.

Comment by TX Panther 10.22.12 @ 10:19 am

Corey just freed up a recruit for a PON (Position of Need). Need more linemen…not RB’s.

Comment by TX Panther 10.22.12 @ 10:21 am

txpanther…
the day Clement decommitted…
Pitt got a verbal from a 2 star RB/Safety out of Maryland… 4.75 speed… plays in lowest level of Maryland HS football.
C’mon man!!

Comment by Joe D 10.22.12 @ 10:33 am

Stoosh that total for myers was for five games he was out hurt for one game. some of his TD were for over 60 yd.
but the best part if you remmber they said he could not throw short some of his TD were for 10 yd that to me is a short throw of course for tino that would be a long throw.

he has had a 5 TD game and 6 TD game and over 450 yd in both games
relevant every thing is relevant they will say the D is no good in div 3 but the WR and the OL are not eather so it is all relevant or eaqual

i dont think myers lacked talent i think he did not pratice well maybe partyed to mutch
but if a QB gets a real shot at the pros my bet is on myers not tino.
he never got a real shot in a game he never played a whole Quater or a half some people are not pratice players he was in for what 2 series one or twice you cant tell from that he pissed the coachs off that would be my guess when he was at pitt.

Comment by FRANKCAN 10.22.12 @ 10:35 am

Frankcan: I think you need to temper your Mark Myers post-partem depression a little. His gaudy numbers are much more a function of the level of football he is playing than the skills he was unable to unleash at the D1 level.

You can’t tell me that 3 head coaches and a half-dozen offensive coordinators chose to simply ignore him on the practice field because he pissed them off. He had great “measurables” but very good stuff on the field. That combination gets you a clipboard every time.

Comment by ECH 10.22.12 @ 10:43 am

* but NOT very good stuff on the field.

-edit

Comment by ECH 10.22.12 @ 10:43 am

I can’t believe Mark Myers is still coming up here. Division I football and where he is playing now are apples and oranges — not even RELATIVE. I am sure you could find dozens of other QB’s at that level with similar stats. That doesn’t mean they can play D-I football. The bottoom line is that Myers had an opportunity at Pitt should he have chosen to take advantage of it. He did not. Don’t blame the coaches. If he pissed the coaches off, that is on him. You do not piss coaches off by practicing and performing well, and following team rules. Enough about Myers. Please.

Comment by JCE 10.22.12 @ 10:51 am

ECH RELEVANT
we will know for sure when he is drafted in the pros if he does not make it you are right if he makes it i am we will see in a year or 2

Comment by FRANKCAN 10.22.12 @ 10:53 am

Change of subject – I think it’s time for Hillgrove to move on with his life’s work in announcing. Actually listened to the tv broadcasters instead of the radio broadcast Saturday. Seemed like he constantly lost track of downs, players, and even the team’s name (2 separate occasions referred to Buffalo as the Bills). For a HOF broadcaster, he’s unfortunately seen his skills fall off. Can’t stand to listen to the Yinzer Nation during Steelers games…

Comment by The Big A 10.22.12 @ 10:56 am

@ FRANKCAN, as well as Emel, Dan and any other critics out there on the current status of Pitt football. FRANKCAN dropped my name when he made mention of “following like blind sheep”. I’m not sure of the reference since I see no one here ignoring the obvious deficits in Pitt’s football program right now.

After Saturday’s win I didn’t hear anybody struttin around with their chest’s puffed out chantin “we bad, we bad”. Other than you guys, but you were defining “bad” is in that, “we stink”.

We’ll we do stink right now, but we smell better than the Buffalo Bulls today. Yes, the less bad team won on Saturday. No one is calling Pitt’s victory a turn around game!

You have the option of being critical of Pitt’s performance, pointing out the weaknesses that were evident and sulking around like we lost the game if you would like to.

But the facts are, we won the game on Saturday in misirable weather conditions and there were some bright spots in that game, besides just winning, that you could appreciate, if you chose to.

You guys can chose to be the pessimists, I can chose to be the optimist. If you bother to check my previous posts, you’ll see that I called this year’s record as anywhere from 3-9 to 9-3. Well at 3-4 I’m in that range already, so we can only go up from here.

Now am I confident that Pitt is on the right track, no I’m not. Do I have answers to Pitt’s problems, no I don’t. I’m I ignoring the obvious issues that Pitt’s future success depends on, no I’m not. Do I HOPE for the best for the Program however, YES I DO. If that makes me a blind sheep, well then I guess that I am, but that doesn’t make me a baaaaaaad person. LOL

Comment by Dr. Tom 10.22.12 @ 10:58 am

I try to see some good in everything and try to avoid being confrontational. I do wish the staff would focus more on recruiting linemen given depth issues. And many recruits are probably turned off because there is little stability in the program given all the coaching changes. Yes, the future is bright with the ACC but Chryst will need to find dynamic recruiters in this footprint to be successful. Pitt can still impress this year by finishing strong and knocking off the Domers in South Bend. Stop being Debbie Downers. It would have been nice to win the Big East and go to a BCS game on our way out but it wasn’t meant to be. I’m trying to enjoy the rest of the season. The negative postings are a beat down.

Comment by TX Panther 10.22.12 @ 11:13 am

A WVU fan was on a radio show saying he took his grand daughter the first time to the game Saturday. He said he will not go back because fans were so drunk they were falling down and cursing non stop.

Maybe we can say not so at Pitt games.

Comment by Frank MD 10.22.12 @ 11:18 am

DR TOM the blind sheep was for burgh72
how could you think it was for you you must have read someting wrong. you know we all love you.
and you have been a down on them at times just like us but only when they need it,

Comment by FRANKCAN 10.22.12 @ 12:27 pm

shame on you DR TOM WHY WOULD YOU THINK THAT WAS FOR YOU YOU ARE THE ONE PERSON WE CAN COUNT ON TO PUT TINO DOWN.
that was for the posters who slam us if we dont think every thing is bright and sunny who think chryst is a god.

Comment by FRANKCAN 10.22.12 @ 12:34 pm

Dr.Tom, you need to re-read FRANKCANS post, he was inlcuding you as a great Pitt fan, but, who also points out things that are bad.

It was a compliment, not throwing you under the bus.

Comment by Dan 10.22.12 @ 1:00 pm

@ Dr. Tom
I give out praise when & where it is warranted.
If you scroll up, you’ll see I praised PITT’s defense for bending, but not breaking in the W on Saturday. In which I also specifically mentioned the play of Dan Mason & Jason Hendricks.

What I attempt to do sometimes on the other hand is disspell some of these notions that there is no talent on this team and that this program was in some sort of doormat total rebuilding stage.

Just a few short years ago we had our best 3 year run in 30 years and finished 2009 ranked #15.
We have been to 4 straight bowl games. There is plenty of talent on this team to be 5-2. No way we should have lost to Youngstown State or Syracuse. Now if that is griping or pissing some ppl off. Too bad !

Comment by EMel 10.22.12 @ 6:42 pm

Whoa, easy there EMEL. That’s a little too close to saying Wanny did a good job. Are you trying to get the haters all stirred up?

Comment by marcus of schaumburg 10.22.12 @ 7:18 pm

lol marcus, God forbid !

*sends marcus a private email suggesting that Wanny did do a good job. Facts are facts. Wins are wins and final poll rankings as in #15 in 2009 are rankings. And that team was two points and one Janocko from being Top 10 and Sugar Bowl bound.
My only beef with Wanny was installing Sir Tino as QB based on nepotism, legacy and all that garbage.

Comment by Emel 10.22.12 @ 7:44 pm

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