Since this recruiting topic is generating many and good discussions I decided to do some basic research and lay out the two football programs, PITT and Wisconsin, side by side in recruiting and records.
I looked at Scouts.com team recruiting rankings for the last seven years, from 2012 back to 2005, and also compared those rankings to team results.
The answers may or may not surprise you but they are enlightening. (Sorry that I couldn’t make the table better – I tried for an hour)
YEAR PITT WISKY
RANKING & W/L
’12 40th 62th
’11 47th 38th
W/L 6/7 11/2
’10 17th 33rd
W/L 8/5 11/2
’09 31st 51st
W/L 10/3 10/3
’08 25th 26th
W/L 9/4 7/6
’07 8th 41st
W/L 5-7 9/4
’06 11th 37th
W/L 6/6 12/1
I also did a quick check with Rivals and in the seven year period we had this:
PITT was ranked in the Top 50 (all they show) six times; 47th, 33rd, 47th, 28th, 26th, 21st.
Wisconsin was in the Top 50 three times; 41st, 34th, 40th.
ESPN was far more stingy all around. PITT was in their Top 25 three times; 21st, 19th, 16th and Wisconsin didn’t make the cut at all.
It shakes out the same really – According to star rankings, PITT far our recruited Wisconsin over that seven year time period but didn’t produce the quality football play that Wisconsin did with lesser recruiting classes.
1) PITT beat Wisconsin in recruiting ranking six out of seven years with average rankings being 18th for PITT and 41st for Wisconsin.
2) Even with that clear lead in recruiting PITT was greatly trounced in the W/L record by records of 60/18 for Wisconsin and 45/32 for PITT. Wisconsin went to seven straight bowl games in that period with two BCS games in the Rose Bowls.
3) PITT only had one year where their W/L record was better than Wisconsin’s – 2008 by 9/4 to 7/6.
4) The final AP Top 25 rankings had Wisconsin in it five times over those seven years with finishes as follows: 10th, 7th, 16th, 24th, 7th. PITT was in it one time with a 15th ranking in 2009.
So, what does this mean?
That Wisconsin, with Chryst, Huxtable and Rudolph on staff, was way more adept at getting results out of their recruiting than PITT has been, even if Wisconsin’s were average classes. Chryst has said previously that it is important to get players who “fit in” and contribute. His saying that they will adapt the style of football to accommodate the talent wasn’t referring to one or two players but to who they had recruited in the preceding years.
I believe the staff at Wisconsin did that by targeting players they wanted rather than the ones with the most stars or hype. Something obviously worked in that regard there because they far out produced PITT on the field of play and in a much stronger conference than the Big East.
Our new staff is going to follow the recruiting template that made Wisconsin so very successful the years they were coaches there. To not do so would be foolish. We don’t need Chryst & Co. running around frantically slobbering over every recruit named in a blog or a list somewhere. I think Chryst’s’ latest press conference supports this.
We need them to keep targeting the players they truly want and then to go out and get them.
I think we all should relax a bit when it comes to PITT football for 2012. Granted that we are the most snake bitten program in America over the last few years but I’ve a feeling we’ll see some stability now and that slowly our blood pressures will go down on game day.
Not to excuse, in any way, Pitt’s complete failure to win against weak competition in the recent past…
You know….that was our first 10 win season since the Marino days (1981-82 I believe). Don’t want to miss that.
Wisconsin’s program got better, just as all these plethora of bowl games and such came about. Because for the longest time, it was the Big 2 (osu & mich. ) and the little 8. Unless you go way back to pre-1968.
Basically with the addition of 2 more Big 10 New Year’s Bowl Games (Capital One & Outback), they needed more than just OSU & Mich. Since they were in play for the Rose Bowl and one other big bowl. Wallah…..
Wisconsin became a power. Penn State also helped out for these “other” two New Year’s day big 10 bowl games.
in 2012 they had 4 local players (WI, IN, IL, MN) out of 12 recruits; in 2011 it was 11 of 21 and in 2010 it was 11 of 26; in 2009 it was 9 of 21 recruits.
What jumped out at me was the number of kids from FL, CA, WA, TX, PA (pgh!) on their recruiting rosters so I’m not sure that their geographical area really matters that much in their recruiting efforts.
I think that they really did target kids all over the country that they really wanted and pushed to get them specifically.
That said, perhaps they will benefit from WPA/PA talent but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if, when the dust settles next LOI Day, there are many more out of state kids than there are local ones in the 2013 class.
Perhaps we should field a women’s wrestling team. haha 🙂
Get over it…enough already.
Recruiting
Player development (teaching fundamentals)
Game day play calling (X’s & O’s, clock management, adjustments, etc.)
Over the years I’ve thought Pitt had excellent recruiting, as evidenced not only by the number of players drafted but the number of All-pros. I think player development was lacking in key areas (like pass defense). I thought game day coaching was laughable.
Wisky has in their stadium on campus since 1917!! Which is why they won more games. Their students could come out to support the team better.
Next thing you are going to blog about is that X’s & O’s matter to the success of a football program.
Sheeeeeeeshhhh!! Don’t you know it is all about recruiting!!
As for recruiting, let me give the perspective that only age can bring.
When I see young girls, I think to myself how pretty they are. I don’t know them so I base my opinion on just what I see. But when I think back to high school, I realize we had girls who were very pretty…but, for one reason or another, they weren’t popular and thus were not perceived to be attractive.
A dear friend of mine who coaches a highly successful high school team in Columbus told me he liked Wanny because Wanny judged talent himself and did not rely on the popular perception.
Maybe it is wishful thinking on my part, but it seems that Wisconsin has focused on being an excellent college football program and not an NFL factory. In all honesty, as much as I dislike WVU, they fit in that category.
Maybe I digress here, but I like the college game far mire than the pro game and if we crank out the same number of pro players in darn near reverse proportion to our hopefully high success rate on the field, I will be a very happy man.
Now, can you please post something on expected Dance Team outfits for 2012!!!
But, PITT has also had the problem of being very overconfident at the most inopportune times, sometimes even within the games themselves. Ohio and Bowling Green are the prime examples of this, but the Cincy debacle in ’09 and other games where we blew big halftime and late leads show this also.
I believe DW didn’t have the ability to get all his players on the same page and ready to play football week after week. It was as if the players liked him as an individual and as a HC but never really took his attempts at leadership seriously.
If Chryst and staff can instill a real and solid sense of team without the individual sense of entitlement some players have had in the past (Baldwin and Sunseri to name two) and avoid the rifts on the team that that entitlement creates (OL v Sunseri in the last two years), he’ll be ahead of the curve coming in.
He doesn’t have to win ten games in his first year, although that would be nice, but has to be fair across the board and create a true sense of competition at all positions.
Here is the latest Zeise blog with some very interesting insights on Chryst
For instance if you look at both teams 2007 recruiting you’ll see that PITT at #8th nationally had records of 9/4, 10/3, 8/5, 6/7 for the next four years.
Wisconsin was 41st in 2007 and their following four years were 7/6, 10/3, 11/2, 11/2.
That is just a snapshot of one recruiting class year. Remember that PITT also had McCoy and Lewis in those four years following 2007 and IMO they overshadowed, by far, the rest of that recruiting class. Had either McCoy, or Lewis in 2009, not signed on PITT’s record would have been abysmal IMO.
From looking at Wisconsin over those years they seemed to have had a much more well rounded team with strong contributions across the board, at least on offense.
There are a million ways to parse these facts but overall I do think it shows a case of one team doing more with less…
Because he was a good judge of talent, part of me wishes Wanny would somehow find his way back to Pitt as AD in charge of recruiting…maybe a glorified version of Bob Junko.
BUT, I don’t want him anywhere near the X’s and O’s for the reasons you state.
A good running game approach when you control the ball and time of possession makes up for a lot of ills … and the 10 win 09 team did this very well, especially due to having a healthy OL for the entire season.
I believe this will be in large part the same approach that Chryst will take, although he may put more of a focus on a mobile, running QB ( a la his new QB coach Brooks Bollinger) … thus the reason for siching A Gonzalez back to QB along with EJ Banks. (just a guess)
As always a very good analysis, Wanny was his own worst enemy during his tenure at Pitt.
There is no faster way for a HC to lose his authority and leadership over his staff and players than to have someone above him in the ‘chain of command’ taking over a key component of the football program.
I feel very strongly about this. In my 33 years of professional life I saw this happen a more than a few times and each instance was an unmitigated disaster for everyone involved.
If you don’t think your HC can recruit well enough to win games then you get rid of him.
Personally, I don’t think DW is intellectually adept enough to be an AD anywhere, but that’s just my opinion.
Plus, he’s not going to return to PITT in a professional capacity after he was fired against his will.
I also think DW’s recruiting was pretty overrated in a real sense. he got the 4* and 5* kids but lets be honest, if he hadn’t landed two RBs in McCoy and Lewis then every season he had would have been a losing one.
Actual strong recruiting is such that the other 21 players you field can be able to win games for you.
If DW had recruited or developed better quarterbacks the results on the field could have been a lot better. The drop off from the Walt Harris years at the quarterback position was a major issue. Dave Wannestedt, for whatever reason, didn’t have much talent or ability at the position.
The deropoff of QB followed with Stull’s 09 season being the exception .. of course ebing supplemented by Lewis and a healthy OL
Under Palko’s three years starting we had:
2004 Run = 1173 @ 105th and 24th passing
2005 Run = 1285 @ 93rd and 67th passing
2006 Run = 1476 @ 72rd and 20th passing
Then after he left & still w/DW:
2007 Run = 1697 @ 71st and 104th passing
2008 Run = 1808 @ 65th and 68th passing
2009 Run = 2344 @ 34th and 67th passing
Got better each year with the run under Wannstedt but pretty much floundered with the passing game which was never strong enough to carry the team.
2010 – Rushing 45th Passing 74th
2011 – Rushing 74th Passing
(Thanks wbb – I ran out of steam)
2011: Run 74th Passing 77th
First off, the article was about Wisconsin staff as a whole and not about Chryst. The Wisconsin staff had that winning success not one person. If you must point to one person it would be Brett Bielema as the HC.
Just as if you must point to one person for PITT’s rather average W/L record over those same years it would have to be Dave Wannstedt. But again, it was the whole PITT staff who contributed to that record, not just the HC.
Secondly, my point was that we may very well not have Top 25 recruiting classes but could very well have successful seasons on the field, just as Wisconsin did because Chryst’s and his staff’s recruiting philosophy will most probably be aligned with what Wisconsin’s was.
Also, your statement “then he should have no problem turning Pitt’s circa Top 25 recruiting classes into a good football product. Obviously we all don’t think this is going to happen.”
I read and listen to all the PITT football stuff I can and I think the large majority of PITT fans do indeed think that Paul Chryst is going to put out a “good football product”. Unless you meant a MNC-type season right off the bat. That’s a pipe dream.
As to being disappointed this year, that is a personal thing and depends on what your expectations are. Some feel that with a new staff, no WVU and a weak schedule we should rack up the wins and a BE championship. Others think we’ll be around .500.
I think you throw a little bit of pure logical reasoning out when you have a first year HC at a program. My stance is that we should see an improvement over last year in his rookie season then when his players are comfortable with him, his staff and his systems we will see solid winning football from then on.
But for this particular article, like I said, all I could think about was that Chryst and his coaches should have no problem turning Pitt into a great team because they already have so much more talent (according to the recruiting sites) to work with than Wisconsin did. I am by no means saying he can’t be successful and that it isn’t gonna be a group effort with his coaches.
But the way I interpreted this article, it should be no problem for Chryst and his coaches to make a good football team out of Pitt given the talent available. I understand you were trying to defend his recruiting efforts and telling us not to think much out of his recruiting methods given his previous success with sub par classes. But I just couldn’t help but think that he should be in the driver’s seat right now in terms of him translating the talent he has available into a good football product.
So I am not saying you would be responsible by any means for my disappointment if Pitt shits the bed again next year (that is more of a personal problem for me and most Pitt fans I’d say). I think next year will be an adjustment for him as a first year coach(plus we still have Tino), so I am not expecting too much already. I honestly think people are just plain dumb if they think Pitt “with a new staff, no WVU and a weak schedule we should rack up the wins and a BE championship. ” I am one of those people who “believe we’ll be around .500.”
But if you reread your comment “That Wisconsin, with Chryst, Huxtable and Rudolph on staff, was way more adept at getting results out of their recruiting than PITT has been, even if Wisconsin’s were average classes,” then maybe you can see where I am coming from. But I also believe alot of that was getting “players who “fit in” and contribute,” as you state above.
I’ll have my Beef on the rocks because I’m relaxing.. Not because I have to!!
Thanks for the perspective!!