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December 17, 2009

If The Big East Expanded…

Filed under: Big East,Conference,Money — Chas @ 10:42 am

I really, really, really don’t look forward to 18+ months of mindless speculation over Big 11 expansion. The amusing thing is that it doesn’t seem my fellow bloggers from Rutgers or Syracuse are that enthusiastic about the matter either.

I’m a cynic and money always trumps all. And no doubt the money of being part of the Big 11 would be too great for any to turn down.

That said, I like the Big East. Yes, it is not a powerhouse football conference, but it is a better fit for Pitt. That said, if the Big East wants to survive it has to act. Sean at Troy Nunes is right, the Big East has to “Grow a F***ing Pair.” They have to stop acting like a b-ball conference and the whole Providence thing is over.

My feelings on this are much the same as when it went down in 2003. If the Big East is to make it and Pitt be a part of it, then the Big East needs to stop the hybrid crap and commit to being a real frickin’ conference. That means jettisoning the b-ball only schools and get to the magic number of 12 teams that compete in the major sports.

Honestly, I was saving this post until the spring when speculation is easier and there are less interesting things — like a bowl game and basketball games. Then the Big 11 decided it needed more attention.

So here it is.

First, there is no magic bullet.  Admit that there is no frickin’ way the Big East is going to be able to raid other BCS conferences for teams. It is about money and the other BCS conferences make and have more than the Big East. Leaving the ACC by BC and/or Maryland is not going to happen. Grumbling alumni in Boston won’t have BC jumping yet again. Just as Penn State isn’t leaving the Big 11. It’s all about the money.

Second, ignore the independents. Please. Notre Dame is not going to make the full commitment. They just aren’t. Pride and money.

Army and Navy are respectable names, but they are not BCS conference teams. Besides their own desire to play a schedule of their choosing — they don’t compete in other major sports. They don’t have (and nor should they be committing) the resources to a full athletic department budget of a major conference program. So, despite the historic cache and respect for being service academies, they aren’t going to be a part of this.

Third, admit that like after the ACC raid, it will have to be retooling with teams with potential and willingness to make the commitment. They will not make the conference better right away.

Fourth, there has to be some geographic logic and natural rivalries. That means Southern Miss and Tulsa are not in the mix.

Philly. Villanova has to make the leap to D-1A. They need to follow the UConn model. They have been successfull at 1AA, function in a major media market and are smack in the Big East footprint — natural rivalries with Pitt in state and Rutgers right next door. If they aren’t willing, then maybe default to Temple as long as the school is willing to continue to make a full commitment.

Central Florida. Okay, this is a no-brainer. USF may not like the idea of helping them, but they are needed. They have made the commitment to an on-campus stadium. They are in a still growing market (Orlando). They offer USF the natural rival, geographic proximity, and further solidifies the Big East in Florida.

East Carolina. Another, mostly no-brainer. They have a very good fanbase and will be immediately competitive in football. Basketball still needs a lot of work, but they have shown a willingness to make a financial commitment to upgrade on all fronts.

Okay, these are predictable. Right? These have been the ones generally mentioned when it comes to Big East expansion. That means the fourth team is going to be Memphis.

Wrong.

Forget the overall shadiness of Memphis’ athletic programs. Forget that outside of basketball  (and their dance team) that they bring little to a conference. Their geographic isolation from all other programs in the Big East (Louisville is closest and they are nearly 400 miles away) without offering the fertile recruiting of Florida is a real problem. As is further spreading the conference west. They are a choice of last resort.

Now for the 4th team.

Charlotte. You read right. The school formerly called UNC-Charlotte. The University of Charlotte 49ers are bringing back football by 2013. Their ill-fated foray into the A-10 — that has seen the loss of rivalries (geographically isolated with Richmond their closest conference foe) and hurt their basketball program — has them working to expand their athletic department. They provide a natural instate rivalry with ECU and exist in  another growing market along the East Coast.

It’s not ideal. And it sure makes clear why, if the Big 11 reaches its inevitable conclusion of expansion and offers Pitt, Syracuse or Rutgers, they will take it.





Nova will never go 1-A, despite the fact that they are in the 1-AA they draw less than some high schools do and they know they wont survive the jump. If you want a 1-A team in Philly it’s gotta be Temple.

If we’re going to force a 1-AA team to go 1-A and join the Big East: UMass, Delaware and Richmond are your best three options in that order.

Comment by pablo 12.17.09 @ 11:31 am

I agree with a proactive approach and the three teams listed above, especially ECU and UCF, should all be considered. Two other proactive approaches to be considered are:

1) tell ND to join or leave. The B10 has already told ND that they would accept ND as an all or none basis. Maybe this will force their hand to either join the BE or B10 … but in either case, I would be fine with that. Even if ND would join the MAC, ACC or CUSA as a non-FB member, it still wouldn’t bother me.

2) The BE members sign an agreement, and publicly announce that while they consider the B10 to be a model conference and would be flattered to be considered, no BE member will entertain an offer … even if that entails upping the buyout ante. At least,this would ensure long-term viability of the FB conference,and not leave 7 of the 8 members hanging on a limb. A public announcement may also dissuade the B10 from pushing the envelope since they appear to be image conscious.

Comment by wbb 12.17.09 @ 12:26 pm

A lot of this nonsense could be avoided if the NCAA changes its rules to allow conf. championship games in 10-11 team leagues. What is their rationale behind 12 teams?

Comment by Chuck Morris 12.17.09 @ 12:59 pm

North / South Big East 12 Team Division:
In no particular order

North:
1.) UConn
2.) Syracuse
3.) Rutgers
4.) Pitt
Possible Expansion Schools (offer the following schools the opportunity to apply and see where what takes place…)
5.) Buffalo / Boston College / Notre Dame
6.) Temple / Villanova / Penn State….you pick

South:
1.) West Virginia
2.) Cincinnati
3.) Lousiville
4.) South Florida
Possible Expansion Schools
5.) Central Florida / Kentucky
6.) Maryland / Florida State (they wanted in 10 years ago, why not now?) / …you pick

The Point is to grow or in the alternative continue to struggle. Furthermoe, why should the Big East strive for the low hanging fruit…go for greatness.

It’s just like hitting on the prettiest girl in the bar, why, because traditionally she isn’t the one anyone approaches, men traditionally think a hottie is out of their league. If you get a number from a hottie it is always better than scoring with an ugly chick…so I say call on the Big Boys the worst that could happen is that they say no!

Comment by Marco 12.17.09 @ 2:11 pm

Pablo, have you ever been to a Temple football game? Well if you had you would know that by the time you’ve said hello to the two people sitting on either side of you that you just talked to about half the crowd. Temple got kicked out of the
BE for a good reason, be done with it.

Comment by Dr Tom 12.17.09 @ 2:47 pm

Why not have the Big 11 take all 3 teams, Pitt Rutgers/Syracuse and WVU 2 7 team divisions (6 games) plus rotate 2 of the other teams and still have room for 4 non conference games a year? the rest of the teams are con usa at best. The ACC could pick up UConn, along with either Rutgers/Syracuse. Tell me who loses??

Comment by Kurt 12.17.09 @ 3:33 pm

Im already bored with this topic. Lets wait a year and see what happens.

Comment by Coach Ditka 12.17.09 @ 3:55 pm

“Why not have the Big 11 take all 3 teams, Pitt Rutgers/Syracuse and WVU 2 7 team divisions (6 games) plus rotate 2 of the other teams and still have room for 4 non conference games a year? the rest of the teams are con usa at best. The ACC could pick up UConn, along with either Rutgers/Syracuse. Tell me who loses??”

Kurt, you have a good sense of humor.

Comment by BigGuy 12.17.09 @ 4:17 pm

Dr. Tom,

I know neither team draws but one team is already functioning at the 1-A level w/o anyone attending while the other is doing it at the 1-AA level. The increased cost for Nova to make that jump when the football team would:

a) Go from being a power to a loser
b) Probably not see a huge increase in attendence.

Makes Nova a bigger risk than Temple. Temple is a much better bet to contribute to Big East football than Nova.

Comment by pablo 12.17.09 @ 4:55 pm

yeah.. right now.. im worried on how the hoops team is gonna reach 18-20 wins this year.

Comment by Snala the Panther 12.17.09 @ 4:57 pm

I’ll get killed by someone for this, but we should just call up the Big 10 people and basically say “Look, if you want to expand, Pitt’s in.”

Unless Notre Dame or Mizzou joins, the Big East is getting raided again one way or another. I also know that, regardless of what you think about their new conference or them, BC, Miami, and VaTech didn’t have to worry about being in a non-BCS conference when they went to the ACC. But the teams left in the Big East did.

Sometimes, if it’s inevitable that a ships going dowm, you need to jump the hell off. It may not be viewed as honorable or whatever, but the honorable people are dead while you’re still alive.

Comment by Jimbo Covert's my Dad 12.17.09 @ 5:34 pm

The other day when this issue first came up I thought Pitt should definitely join if asked. Now after reading a lot of insightful comments by people here I’m not so sure. IF Pitt was invited I honestly don’t know what would be best for the university in the long run. What I do know is I am totally frustrated with the leadership of the Big East…

link to bleedscarlet.wordpress.com

Comment by thewrathofwalt 12.17.09 @ 6:09 pm

Inviting Nova, UCF, ECU and Charlotte would be like adding deck chairs to the Titanic. In the end, Pitt or Rutgers will still have to accept if the B10 offers because neither really trusts the other and neither wants to be left holding the bag when the other one bolts.

In any case, I think it’s pretty likely that they study it for 18 months and decide not to invite anyone because the team they really want – ND – just isn’t interested in what the B10 is offering.

Comment by maguro 12.17.09 @ 6:39 pm

KDKA2 just quoted a Chicago Tribune article stating that the B10 may be looking into adding as many of 3 teams to make a 14 team.

Jamie Dixon was alos interviewed and wondered as to why Pitt would leave ‘the best conference in the history of college basketball.’ He also cited that the bowl tie-ins provide the BE with the largest percentage of teams participating than any other league … not a bad spin, if true, but of course not much $$.

A consideration not mentioned … would Dixon leave if Pitt joined the B10 .. a real possibility.

Comment by wbb 12.17.09 @ 6:53 pm

Outside of the schools that will NOT be interested in joining the BE FB conf (ND, PSU, BC, VT etc) no matter how hard the BE tries, none of the others mentioned add anything but maybe some travel. They have no tradition. The breadth of some are severely limited. Charlotte, for example (not trying to pick on them in particular, but just using it as a typical example), is further from PITT’sburgh than any of the the Big 10 schools but Wisky and Iowa, and nobody ever heard of them or their FB program. I just can’t get any excitement going about adding any of those schools that would be willing to join the BE. The BE will be less one core team, probably PITT, but weaker no matter who from the BE joins the Big 10 (you can already cross off ND and Mizzou). PITT is an old institution with a long history of tradition of broad academic excellence and over a century of FB tradition, and is in the process of really stepping up the caliber of its athletic facilities and programs across the board. Why would we want to stay in a weakened FB conference with what might be kindly called ‘starter’ programs?? While it might help the starter programs, from our perspective of the older schoiols with tradition, that is a recipe for braod apathy and a lousy league. There is nothing to gain. More empty seats and fewer fans travelling in the future is not what PITT needs.

Comment by IronmanEE68 12.17.09 @ 7:02 pm

a few posters have seemed to forget that Minnesota is in the B10 and located furthest from Pgh

Comment by wbb 12.17.09 @ 7:22 pm

Would Jamie be so disillusioned by Pitt leaving a great b-ball conference (hypothetically of course) for a mediocre one that he’d take another job if a bigtime hoops school needed a new coach?

If we moved, a casualty could be losing the face of our hoops program.

Comment by Jimbo Covert's my Dad 12.17.09 @ 7:38 pm

I’m with Chas…my last comment on this until spring at earliest…The comment on BigTen taking more than 1 team is interesting. I could see BigTen taking multiple teams and then ACC taking more and then Pac10 and Big12 grow as well…if that is the case the Big East will have no choice but to dissolve. It’s going to fun to watch it play out and I think somehow Pitt will end up ok when the dust settles.

Comment by milo bloom 12.17.09 @ 8:04 pm

Big Guy, I think Kurt has identified where college football is heading…about 8, 14 team, super conferences, with the winner of each joining the playoffs. College FB will have a playoff system. When that happens, the current conference set-ups just don’t work. Can you hear it now: LSU up in arms because they had to go through the SEC to get to the playoffs, while Boise State only had to win the Mountain West! Plus when the playoff system comes, they will want the maximum number of teams in D1 to be eligible. Leagues used to be good with 8 teams, then came 10, and then 12. Why is 14 so hard to see?

Comment by HbgFrank 12.17.09 @ 8:07 pm

Chicago Trib articles … Dixon … expansion candidates (check out the why not) … 14 teams?

link to chicagobreakingsports.com

link to chicagotribune.com

link to chicagotribune.com

Comment by wbb 12.17.09 @ 8:38 pm

I think the Pitt administration needs to decide sooner rather than later if they want to pursue Big Ten membership. If they do, they should follow the VT model, i.e. use the state legislature to pressure a conference member (Penn State) into helping the cause. Pitt is the only potential expansion candidate with that advantage.

Comment by BP'93 12.17.09 @ 9:37 pm

Let’s put ole Gov. Ed Rendell on the case. He loves Pittsburgh! He all but drove the Pens out of the city. If he’s involved, we may be left without a University. The only thing he’d petition is for Pennsylvania to move it’s western border east of Latrobe.

HTscriptP

Comment by Cool Hand Nuke 12.18.09 @ 2:20 am

I wouldn’t ignore Marshall either. Natural rivalry with WVU, not to far out of the market (although Huntington isn’t exactly close). Might be a good alternative to Villanova or Temple.

I would like the league to get rid of some of the non-football schools, but are we really ready to part with St. John’s, Seton Hall, Georgetown, or Providence? I’d rather not see those schools go. So if we can get to twelve teams in football and keep sixteen in basketball I’d be happy.

If we add four of the teams mentioned (say Marshall, Temple, East Carolina, and Charlotte just for the sake of argument) We would have to jettison four in basketball. Three come easily to mind: DePaul, Marquette, and Notre Dame. Those three don’t belong in any league with “East” in the title. But then we’d have to part with one of the four schools I don’t want to. I guess Providence would be my first choice, but I’d hate to do it to them.

I think the answer might be to find ONE and only one football-only member. I don’t know if such a team even exists though. That’s where I think Navy might be a good fit. If we added Marshall, Temple, and East Carolina for both, added Navy for football only, and dumped DePaul, Marquette, and Notre Dame I think we’d have a solid (and money-making) league in both sports within 3-5 years.

Comment by Ben 12.18.09 @ 7:11 am

[…] with Sean from Troy Nunes; the Big East needs to stop screwing around (Chas from Pitt Blather concurs). Well, Temple > Villanova, but still. When Providence College has a stranglehold on the […]


Ben, SJU, Providence, Gerogetown are all original members of the BE (not sre about Seton Hall, and it was the immediate success that laid the groundwork of what was to follow.

Please note that the BE FB conference was borne out of necessity (Chas, correct me if I’m wrong) after PSU joined the B10 … the writing was on the wall that FB members needed the security of a league, thus the acceptance of WVU, VT and Miami into the league. Miami had little to gain in FB but much to gain in BB and most of its other sports (not baseball) by joining an all-sports league.

Currently, there are 8 FB playing members and 8 non-FB members, and should a team exit for the B10, then a FB member would be a replacement. I believe the natural progression is to split up the BE into these two configurations.

Comment by wbb 12.18.09 @ 8:21 am

The lack of leadership regarding big east football is obvious, this is a basketball conference and football is an afterthought.

The presidents and ad’s at the non football schools could care less.

OK cash is king and this will never happen but the argument should be made to:

Notre Dame, the reason your football program has not been competitive is because you are not in a conference, kids want to play in a conference. It is time to make the choice, Big East, Big Ten or ACC. Big East, get some balls and make them an ultimatum.

Penn State, you are an eastern school. The Big Ten has always been and will always be the big two and the little eight.Your recruiting has suffered and you are an afterthought in the conference. You do have a great women’s volleyball team though. You could be the big dog again.

Boston College, Come on, do you think those southerners respect you. You are really irrelevant nationally. UConn is going to get all the good players eventually. Besides the fix is in for Carolina and Duke. Come back to where your rivals are.

Maryland, this is the hardest sell. They love the ACC. But it makes sense. They border PA and WV could drive to games. How about Georgetown vs. Maryland every year. You would be more competitive in football and as I said about the fix. The Big East is competitive from top to bottom and you would fit right in. Trips to NYC must be more appealing than tobacco road.

Regarding the money, this football conference would be the most valuable to TV, better demographics. The Bowls would be salivating. Basketball would still be the best and regionally it makes the most sense.

Anyway, back to reality. If Missouri or ND do not go to the Big Ten. Big East Football is through. I hate the Big Two and the little nine.

Comment by gc 12.18.09 @ 9:11 am

OK…This is still a developing situation and things can and will change rapidly. With that said, I believe that Pitt must look strongly at this opportunity. Seems to me that most are only looking at this scenario from an athletic, football and/or basketball viewpoint. While I am very satisfied with the state of the BE conference today, we all know and/or knew this complication was just around the corner. Resting blame on decisions and people in the past or present is futile. Providence should not be leading the conference. We all know this. What must happen is a analysis of Pitt’s position for either staying put or promoting itself to the B10. Financial, Athletic, Institution, Endowment and other university factors are of utmost importance. It is not about who plays a better brand of football. It is not about losing a recruiting edge in NYC. It is not about basketball. It is not about which coach does or doesn’t want to go. It is not about the Script Pitt. It is not about which staff member/coach may leave or his or her thoughts on the matter. It is about the solid positioning of the university for the future… institutionally, academically and athletically. This decision is larger than what happens at the Pete and it is larger than the play at Heinz field. This decision will be longer term than the terms of Dixon, Perderson, Nordberg or Wannstedt. It will have far reaching effects long into the future. The BE at this point really only has a couple of plays. They can add. But those additions are average at best. They can try for ND but I think we all can assume the outcome of that discussion. They can’t entice other major schools already affiliated with major conferences. PSU, Maryland, etc….will not change their positions. Bottom Line….Pitt needs to figure which way they must move. Evaluate the risk vs. reward of B10 movement, knowing there will be positive and negative outputs. Stay with the BE, realizing when the music stops, Pitt’s position could potentially deteriorate. I am not endorsing any determination at this time. I know what my gut is telling me. I also know I would be working full time determining the success/failure analysis of either holding my cards or promoting myself to the B10. I also know that I would not be only concerned with each individual basketball/football program or only the History and Philosophy of Science Department but rather the entire University of Pittsburgh package (UPMC included). Based on the evidence of B10 criteria for potential selection, the B10 certainly looks at the entire package of an institution rather than just small pieces of that same institutional pie.

Pitt Administration members will be earning their pay over these next months. Make no mistake that if conference movement transpires, this will be another water shed moment in Pitt history.

Hail to Pitt

Comment by Jason 12.18.09 @ 9:22 am

Jason – respectfully, you are incorrect…it is all about the Script Pitt! Sorry, couldnt’ resist.

I generally agree with your assessment, but one other factor that Pitt has to consider is what happens if they make this push but are ultimately rebuffed. I can imagine a scenario where the Big Ten decides to put off a decision on expansion for another 5 years. If Pitt makes this push, but ultimately is rejected, their position in the Big East will be damaged. I’m not saying it isn’t worth the risk, or shouldn’t be pursued, just that they need to account for this result as well. Of course, it may be that no matter what happens over the next 18 months, the Big East will be irreparably damaged, but we don’t know that yet.

Comment by Pantherman13 12.18.09 @ 9:41 am

Pantherman13,

Agreed…and thus the need for serious success/failure mode analysis….What happens if Pitt stands put…What happens if Pitt promotes. Should they be publicly open about their desires or use other means of communication. Huge decisions with major complications. That is why worrying about a coaches comments in the PG or wringing of hands about one university segment vs. another is small vision in my opinion.

You are right. The BE is going to change one way or the other and no one knows the results…Interesting to watch, that’s for sure!

Hail to Pitt

Comment by Jason 12.18.09 @ 9:51 am

The comments posted have been interesting and promote the discussion even though I may have made a flippant remark or two. I am not in favor of bolting to the Big 10 if an invite would be made. There are two major sports: FB and BB. If we accept, as Jamie D suggests, we leave the best BB conference (probably in history).

The talk of having a BB conference made up of only the football members of the league, in my judgment, is silly. All those who are in favor of Pitt not playing Georgetown or Villanova or ND or Marquette or even St. Johns raise your hand. With regard to dropping any BB teams. “Hey UConn, we’re dropping your traditional rival Providence because Pitt doesn’t want them in the league. Rutgers, we know that Seton Hall is 20 miles up the road, St. Johns and the Garden are right across the river and Villanova is about 2-hours down the pike, but, sorry, they don’t play football. We know that Georgetown is a big financial draw, but they don’t play big time football. For you Pitt alumni living in the NJC area, Pitt ain’t gonna come to Seton Hall or to St. Johns any more. ND, we will make an exception and keep you in the BB league, but we have to get rid of Marquette and DePaul.”

Does anyone want to make this presentation at the league meeting?

Comment by BigGuy 12.18.09 @ 11:05 am

Villanova epitomizes the imbalance that distorts the Big East. They have been a big time football program in the past. They are a winning FCS program. And remember they blocked Temple from full membership at the outset of the football conference. Even though Pitt and Villanova should be big time Big East rivals, they aren’t. I assume that’s their doing. What will they do if it’s go to FBS status or move out of the conference? If they can’t bring the Philly TV market the league needs to tell them Temple will. The Big East football conference needs a presence in Philadelphia. Personally I think kicking out Temple was a stupid move. Now Penn State is a featured program in that market. Chas – you are absolutely correct in your analysis.

Comment by TonyinHouston 12.18.09 @ 11:38 am

Those of you on this board who spout the Big East crap-line of “there is no body who adds value to the league” must be smoking some funky weed. Cincinnati – a low level Conference USA team – is now competing for the national title. South Floria is in the news all the time. Just imagine if they could actually pull together a complete season. Instead of repeating no team adds value, repeat the Big East adds value to whichever teams it chooses. Please – be progressive. The conference is already regressive enough. And Dr. Tom – you are dead wrong about Temple. It doesn’t matter how many fans attend their games – and, by the way, their attendance has improved 100% – it matters who makes the papers in Philadelphia. Pitt hardly ever does. Penn State has its own banner. That my friend, is called losing the PR battle.

Comment by TonyinHouston 12.18.09 @ 11:44 am

Tony – it’s been awhile since I lived in Philly (I left in 1992), but during my time there, Penn State was already the dominant media force. Frankly, Penn drew more attention than Temple. Yes, a large part of it was because their team was lousy, but they also played far from campus, much of their student body commuted to campus (much higher percentage than Pitt), and they did not commit the money necessary to field a competitive team. I did not particularly like the way the Big East handled their removal, but I doubt that bringing them back in would deliver the Philly market. PSU has that market, and frankly, its been that way for a long time.

Comment by Pantherman13 12.18.09 @ 12:03 pm

More mindless speculation.

link to rushthecourt.net
big-ten-expansion/

Comment by shablinky 12.18.09 @ 12:29 pm

I’m so tired of hearing about the NYC connection for Pitt BBall. First of all, the cream of the crop in NYC are not coming to Pitt. Yes, we got some decent recruits from that area…but, let’s be clear, the top recruits are bailing NYC and going to Syracuse, UCONN, Duke, and now…Villanova. Yes, I’ve liked our recruits from the area. Yes, I’ve liked how they have performed in the Garden. But let’s be clear, we’re NOT getting the cream of the crop. Thus, losing NYC as a recruiting bed is not that big of a deal in my eyes.

There are top 50 recruits in Ohio and Michigan… and I think we can seriously compete with the OSU and MSU for these recruits and get BETTER.

Losing NYC as a recruiting bed, IMHO, is way overratted.

Comment by Pauly P 12.18.09 @ 1:56 pm

The DC metro(MD & VA suburbs) and Baltimore area is a huge hoops hotbed. There are 4 kids on the Pitt basketball team from that area. If Pitt could get 2 kids a yr out of the catholic league WCAC they could field a top 25 team in basketball. Schools like DeMatha, Gonzaga, O’Connell, Good Counsel, etc… produce tons of talent and the kids will have the grades to get in.

Comment by Topper22 12.18.09 @ 2:21 pm

Tony, glad to hear that Temple has increased attendence 100%. When I went to school there in the late 70s they drew 4 to 5,000 at the old Veteren’s Staduim for their football games. Does that mean their packing in 8 to 10,000 now? On the bright side of this issue, I never had to wait in line to use the bathroom during halftime.

Comment by Dr Tom 12.18.09 @ 2:24 pm

Losing NYC as a recruiting bed is not overratted. That’s because it isn’t just NYC. It’s NYC/NJ/Philly that you would probably lose. That’s the most fertile area and the reason its such a huge loss is that you go and pluck kids that maybe aren’t top 50 guys, but are just as good as the top guys from OH and MICH. And Pitt has gotten quite a few talented NY guys, Chris Taft and Taylor were both top 50 guys (Taylor didn’t stay for HS but originally is from NY), Fields and Biggs were also pretty high recruits. It’s about recruiting ties, and having to completely shift to new areas is never a good thing when other teams have established ties and the talent pool is far less

Comment by PITTapotamus 12.18.09 @ 2:30 pm

Sorry, not buying the NYC/NJ/Philly thing being a deal breaker. Yes, we have gotten some good kids from that area but the level of elite kids that we get are NOT from that area–so why the big fuss. My point is– we’re picking up second tier players and projects from the EC area…so why are we so scared to lose it? Unleash Brandin and Dixon in NE Ohio, Michigan, Indiana…see what they turn up, have them build the ties… You may be suprised. We may compete better because we are actually IN THE GAME for the top prospects. Right now, we’re not getting these top picks in NYC.

Also, a top prospect is a top prospect. Period. And there are a lot in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana… A second tier prospect on the East COast does not trump a top tier prospect from the Midwest.

Comment by Pauly P 12.18.09 @ 2:40 pm

Now I remember why Temple got kicked out of the Big East:

link to ncaabbs.com

Comment by BigGuy 12.18.09 @ 2:58 pm

BigGuy…your records date from 2008 and not 2009, however your point is valid. In the end this is about the future of the Big East, I think we all agree the Conference needs to expand to survive…so let’s move forward with an expansion with quality teams or move to a league that offers us this possibility!

Comment by Marco 12.18.09 @ 3:46 pm

Perhaps the greatest thing that has come from this entire discussion is Greasy Joe Pa actually is naming Pitt as someone to be considered in the B10. Cokebottle Joe must have had another stroke.

Comment by Pitt it IS 12.18.09 @ 4:12 pm

Reading through these posts guys – look at the teams mentioned and compare them to Pitt joining the B10 and consider that line-up. Pitt couldn’t and shouldn’t say no.

Comment by Pitt it IS 12.18.09 @ 4:37 pm

“Pitt couldn’t and shouldn’t say no.”

Pitt it IS, Pitt could say “No”. Should they? That is why we have Democrats and why we have Republicans: it makes life more interesting.

Comment by BigGuy 12.18.09 @ 5:51 pm

Dr. Tom:
Temple’s attendance this year averaged a little over 17,000, 14,000 behind Cincy. So perhaps I should have written that 100% improvement still indicates much improvement needed. However, they are improving both on the field and by drawing fans. Here is the link for NCCA attendance:
link to web1.ncaa.org.
Reading through newspapers and blogs today it looks like the NYC market is really what the Big Ten wants. So once again Nordy will need to work hard to make the Big East Football Conference the best it can be if the raid occurs that many think will.

Comment by TonyinHouston 12.18.09 @ 6:29 pm

To Boston College: You are not wanted.
Check out BC’s attendance – 35,000 – not so hot for a big time ACC school. Plus the BC bloggers are not a happy group – complaining about tail-gating problems at the stadium, the lack of school spirit, disconnect with DeFilippo whom they say doesn’t listen, and the latest: BC band not going to Emerald Bowl. Maybe we are better off without them?

Comment by TonyinHouston 12.18.09 @ 6:36 pm

Tony,
It almost sounds like you are describing Pitt! LOL

“…bloggers are not a happy group – complaining about tail-gating problems at the stadium, the lack of school spirit, disconnect with (Peterson) whom they say doesn’t listen (about the script P) …”

Comment by Chuck Morris 12.20.09 @ 1:08 am

The first round is completed, and the lone survivor of yesterday’s top 3 is leader George Lesko, who has BYU over Murray State to go to the final four.

Today’s second place trailing by 5 with Ohio State as a national champion is Samuel Friedman. Other distinguishable marks in his bracket include a final four of Ohio State, Syracuse, West Virginia, and baylor, with the Hoopies advancing over Baylor. Mr. Friedman also has Texas over Kentucky, and Cornell to the Elite 8.

3rd place is Michael Meadows, who believes Kentucky will be cutting down the nets with a win over Georgetown(haha!!).

I am in 155th place, but it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish.

Pulling up the rear is Kevin Corcoran. Man, I don’t even know where to start with your bracket. Texas to the elite 8, and Utah State, Richmond to the Sweet 16.

On a side note, it looks like we have a large contingency with WVU winning it all.

Here’s to you; Todd Gack, Rob Wittig, Kevin Gagliardi, Jacob Meyer, Josh Mohl, Peter Biggs, and Samuel Friedman(has them runner ups)

Comment by Luke 03.20.10 @ 1:11 am

The first round is completed, and the lone survivor of yesterday’s top 3 is leader George Lesko, who has BYU over Murray State to go to the final four.

Today’s second place trailing by 5 with Ohio State as a national champion is Samuel Friedman. Other distinguishable marks in his bracket include a final four of Ohio State, Syracuse, West Virginia, and baylor, with the Hoopies advancing over Baylor. Mr. Friedman also has Texas over Kentucky, and Cornell to the Elite 8.

3rd place is Michael Meadows, who believes Kentucky will be cutting down the nets with a win over Georgetown(haha!!).

I am in 155th place, but it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish.

Pulling up the rear is Kevin Corcoran. Man, I don’t even know where to start with your bracket. Texas to the elite 8, and Utah State, Richmond to the Sweet 16.

On a side note, it looks like we have a large contingency with WVU winning it all.

Here’s to you; Todd Gack, Rob Wittig, Kevin Gagliardi, Jacob Meyer, Josh Mohl, Peter Biggs, and Samuel Friedman(has them runner ups)

Comment by Luke 03.20.10 @ 1:12 am

The first round is completed, and the lone survivor of yesterday’s top 3 is leader George Lesko, who has BYU over Murray State to go to the final four.

Today’s second place trailing by 5 with Ohio State as a national champion is Samuel Friedman. Other distinguishable marks in his bracket include a final four of Ohio State, Syracuse, West Virginia, and baylor, with the Hoopies advancing over Baylor. Mr. Friedman also has Texas over Kentucky, and Cornell to the Elite 8.

3rd place is Michael Meadows, who believes Kentucky will be cutting down the nets with a win over Georgetown(haha!!).

I am in 155th place, but it’s not how you start, it’s how you finish.

Pulling up the rear is Kevin Corcoran. Man, I don’t even know where to start with your bracket. Texas to the elite 8, and Utah State, Richmond to the Sweet 16.

On a side note, it looks like we have a large contingency with WVU winning it all.

Here’s to you; Todd Gack, Rob Wittig, Kevin Gagliardi, Jacob Meyer, Josh Mohl, Peter Biggs, and Samuel Friedman(has them runner ups)

Comment by Luke 03.20.10 @ 1:12 am

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